Thinking 2 Think

Are You Thinking or Just Obeying?

• Michael Antonio Aponte • Episode 50

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We dig into the psychology of blind obedience, exploring how the findings from Milgram's famous shock experiment continue to echo powerfully in today's world from cults to pandemic responses and political tribalism.

• The Milgram experiment revealed 65% of participants would deliver maximum "shocks" when instructed by an authority figure
• Three key conditions facilitate obedience: legitimate-seeming authority, diffused responsibility, and gradual escalation
• The "agentic state" allows people to transfer responsibility to authority figures and bypass their own moral judgment
• Cult dynamics weaponize the same psychological principles found in Milgram's experiment
• During the pandemic, social pressure and fear of being labeled "anti-science" discouraged questioning of changing directives
• Political tribalism mirrors cult psychology with blind loyalty, moral framing, and punishment of dissenters
• The Dunning-Kruger effect combines with obedience to create people who are confidently wrong yet resistant to correction
• Critical thinking and self-awareness are the antidotes to blind obedience
• We should reframe dissent as a form of care rather than rebellion or betrayal
• Understanding these psychological mechanisms gives us power to consciously choose whether to be influenced by them

Keep thinking to think and practicing conscious, critical engagement with the authorities in your life.


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Lyra Morgan:

Welcome to the Deep Dive. This is where we dig into, you know, stacks of research articles and ideas to pull out the really important stuff so you can be well informed without getting totally buried.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly, we do the digging, so you get the gold.

Lyra Morgan:

And today, oh boy, we're jumping into something deep. It's fascinating, but also, frankly, a bit uncomfortable. We're talking about blind obedience. Our guide through this is largely the evolving thinking of Michael Aponte. He has this perspective that the lessons from well, one of psychology's most famous or maybe infamous experiments, the Milgram experiment, they're not just history.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

No, not at all, he argues. They echo really powerfully today. You see it in cult-like groups, you saw it in how people responded during the pandemic and definitely in our political divides right now.

Lyra Morgan:

Right. And that brings us to why this really matters, doesn't it?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Absolutely. Aponte really nails this core idea, something we probably all sense but don't often face head on. We humans are just so susceptible to obeying authority, even when it clashes with our own morals, our common sense, even.

Lyra Morgan:

It's a vulnerability.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

A deep one, and understanding that vulnerability isn't just academic, I mean, it's crucial for navigating the world today. It's how you guard against manipulation, how you actually think critically and how you protect your own autonomy and, frankly, ours collectively.

Lyra Morgan:

That's a pretty heavy starting point. Okay, so let's build this up from the foundation. Aponte uses the Milgram experiment itself. Stanley Milgram 1961, yale Most people have heard of it, right, the shock experiment.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Yeah, it's pretty famous.

Lyra Morgan:

But Aponte wants us to look closer, beyond just the headline number, that 65% who went all the way. Milgram's goal was chilling, wasn't it? He was trying to get his head around atrocities like the Holocaust, asking that awful question could it be that Eichmann and you know millions of others were just following orders? That question still lands hard today.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It really does. And that led to the whole setup. For anyone who needs a quick refresher you had volunteers brought in, told it was a study on memory. They got assigned the role of teacher.

Lyra Morgan:

And the learner was in on it an actor.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Right, a confederate. The teacher had to give shocks, supposedly for wrong answers, and the shocks got stronger each time. But here's the critical part no actual shocks were delivered.

Lyra Morgan:

But the teachers didn't know that.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

No, the learners' reactions, the grunts, the prize of pain, the pleas to stop, eventually, just the silence. It was all an act pre-recorded or performed, and all the while you had this authority figure nearby, the experimenter in a lab coat, looking official, very official, calmly telling the teacher they had to continue Using these prods. Like the experiment requires that you continue or you have no other choice. You must go on.

Lyra Morgan:

And the results were just staggering.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Disturbing is the word, because it showed how ordinary people could be pushed to do extraordinary, even terrible things. Like you said, 65 percent, nearly two thirds, went all the way to the maximum 450 volts.

Lyra Morgan:

Even though they were clearly distressed.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Oh, absolutely, milgram documented it. People were sweating, trembling, stuttering, protesting. I mean real anguish, right, but they kept flipping the switches.

Lyra Morgan:

So what made them keep going? What conditions did Milgram find?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

He pinned down a few key things. One the authority figure had to seem legitimate. The Yale setting the lab coat, the calm demeanor, it all added up. Two responsibility felt diffused.

Lyra Morgan:

The experimenter would say I'm responsible, taking the burden off the teacher. Ah okay, so it wasn't their fault.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

They could tell themselves that yeah. And third and this is crucial the gradual escalation. Each shock was only slightly higher than the last. It wasn't a sudden jump to 450 volts.

Lyra Morgan:

Made each step easier to take.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly Easier to justify internally. It's just a little more.

Lyra Morgan:

Okay, so a pundit takes these findings from the 60s and says hold on, this isn't just about labs and Nazis, this is about us. Now, how does he make that leap? What are the mechanisms he points to?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Right, he argues. These aren't just historical quirks. They reveal fundamental psychological mechanisms that are always operating. The first one he talks about is the agentic state.

Lyra Morgan:

Agentic state Okay.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It's a shift in thinking. You stop seeing yourself as acting autonomously with your own responsibility and start seeing so you basically hand over responsibility. You do Mentally, you transfer it to the authority figure.

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

And that's where you get that chilling phrase. I was just following orders. It lets people bypass their own moral compass because they feel they aren't the ones truly acting.

Lyra Morgan:

Wow. And how easily can we slip into that state, maybe without even noticing?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Brighteningly easily sometimes, which leads to the second mechanism Aponte highlights drawing right from Milgram Gradual escalation. You might know it as the foot in the door technique.

Lyra Morgan:

Get someone to agree to something small first.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly Small, seemingly harmless steps given by an authority can slowly lead you down a path to doing something extreme. It's psychologically much easier to justify a small increase in, say, the shop level than to make a huge leap.

Lyra Morgan:

It normalizes it over time.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Precisely A slow normalization. It's a potent manipulation tool because each step feels manageable, almost logical, until suddenly you look back and think how did I get here? We see this everywhere, not just in experiments agreeing to small requests that lead to bigger ones.

Lyra Morgan:

And the third mechanism driving this.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

That's perceived authority. Our brains are just well wired to respect authority. It's how societies function largely. But the thing is, even the symbols of authority can trigger this obedience.

Lyra Morgan:

Like the lab coat.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

The lab coat a fancy title, impressive credentials, even just someone acting really confident. These symbols can command obedience. And Aponte points out something really profound here Challenging that authority doesn't just feel like disagreeing.

Lyra Morgan:

It feels wrong.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Yeah, it can feel like a moral disobedience, like you're breaking a fundamental rule, not just expressing a different opinion. That makes pushing back really, really hard for a lot of people.

Lyra Morgan:

Okay, this is where it gets really interesting. Aponte draws this direct line from Milgram's lab straight to cults. That might sound like a big jump at first.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It might seem that way, but when Aponte lays it out the parallels are undeniable. He argues, cults basically weaponize the same psychological principles Milgram uncovered.

Lyra Morgan:

How? So? What are the typical dynamics in a cult?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Well, think about it. You usually have a charismatic leader who becomes the ultimate, unquestionable authority. Information is super tightly controlled. You only get the party line.

Lyra Morgan:

Right Dissent is punished.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Often severely, either emotionally, socially, sometimes even physically, creates a climate of fear and followers are gradually indoctrinated. They internalize the cult's beliefs until it becomes their identity.

Lyra Morgan:

So questioning the cult means questioning yourself.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly, and there's almost always this strong us versus them mentality. The outside world is painted as dangerous, corrupt or ignorant. It binds the group together.

Lyra Morgan:

And a pont maps Milgram's conditions right onto this.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It's almost point for point. Remember Milgram's legitimate authority In a cult. That's the charismatic leader. Milgram's gradual compliance, step-by-step shocks that's the cult's slow indoctrination.

Lyra Morgan:

Okay, I see that.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

The diffusion of responsibility. Milgram found that's like the group thinking cults, where the leader is always right and individual responsibility dissolves into the group, the moral pressure the teachers felt like he was wrong to stop the experiment. Cults explicitly frame obedience as virtue. Following the leader is the moral thing to do.

Lyra Morgan:

And the stress Milgram's participants felt.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Cults often use stress, confusion, sleep deprivation been spilt. Cults often use stress, confusion, sleep deprivation. These tactics are known to increase suggestibility, making people more open to the leader's influence. Aponte argues these aren't just coincidences. They're the same psychological levers being pulled.

Lyra Morgan:

That is quite a parallel. Now Aponte takes this even further, into very recent events. He makes this really provocative statement the pandemic revealed not just a public health crisis, but a psychological experiment in mass obedience.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Yeah, that's a strong claim and, like you said earlier, we need to be clear. We're looking at the psychological mechanisms that Ponte identifies, not debating the specific policies themselves. But his point is the conditions for obedience were strongly present.

Lyra Morgan:

Okay, so what did we see during the pandemic that fits this pattern were strongly present.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

OK, so what did we see during the pandemic? That fits this pattern? Well, you had authorities, governments, health experts, media outlets issuing directives. Now, these were often presented as necessary for public safety, but they also frequently changed. Sometimes they even contradicted earlier advice.

Lyra Morgan:

Right Things were evolving quickly.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

They were, but despite the confusion or inconsistencies, large segments of the public generally followed the mandates mask rules, lockdowns, business closures, vaccine requirements. And what Aponte really highlights is the role of social pressure.

Lyra Morgan:

How so.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

There was often significant censorship sometimes subtle, sometimes overt of dissenting voices or alternative perspectives. Sometimes overt of dissenting voices or alternative perspectives and shaming. Questioning the official narrative could quickly get you labeled as selfish, anti-science or worse.

Lyra Morgan:

So it became socially risky to disagree Very risky, Professionally risky for some too.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

This created an environment where exploring different viewpoints felt unsafe for many people.

Lyra Morgan:

And the obedience wasn't just driven by fear of the virus itself.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Aponte argues it was more complex. Yes, fear of illness and death was a huge factor, but so was the desire to be seen as morally good, as doing the right thing, Social pressure, professional pressure and trust in those perceived authorities the CDC, the WHO, the government, scientists, the white coats again in a way. In a way, yes, the symbols of expertise and the emotional framing was powerful. Disagreeing wasn't just having a different opinion, it was framed as being dangerous or uncaring. Compliance became the socially accepted norm, enforced not just by rules but by peer pressure.

Lyra Morgan:

And what happens when contradictions pop up, when the advice changes or the data doesn't quite fit the narrative?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

That's where Aponte brings in cognitive dissonance. It's psychologically uncomfortable to hold two conflicting ideas. I trust this authority, and this authority seems to be contradicting itself or getting things wrong.

Lyra Morgan:

So what do people do?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Often the easier path psychologically is to dismiss the contradiction, to double down on the original belief it feels safer to assume the authority must be right, maybe just privy to information you don't have, rather than confront the possibility that you put your trust in something flawed or that you complied with something unnecessary.

Lyra Morgan:

So you protect your belief system even against evidence.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It's a powerful self-protection mechanism, but the side effect is that it entrenches the obedience. It makes it even harder to question things later on. You become invested in having been right all along.

Lyra Morgan:

Okay. So from Milgram to cults, to the pandemic, aponte then casts his net even wider, looking at modern politics, and again it's a pretty stark claim Political tribes now mirror cult psychology.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It's definitely a statement designed to make you think, and again he's focusing on the behavioral patterns and the psychological mechanisms, not necessarily the specific political beliefs themselves.

Lyra Morgan:

So what parallels does he draw there?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

You see echoes of the same dynamics. Think about blind loyalty, allegiance to a political figure or party that seems to override everything else, even logic or past statements. Policies might change, facts might contradict, but the loyalty remains.

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah, we see that.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Then there's the moral framing. Politics gets presented not just as policy choices but as the battle between good and evil. Real Americans believe this. True progressives do that Obedience to the party line becomes a moral imperative.

Lyra Morgan:

Disagreement isn't just wrong, it's immoral.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly, and look at the excommunication of dissenters. People who step out of line within their own party get attacked, labeled rhinos, traitors, centrists, depending on the group. Cancel culture on various sides aims to punish ideological deviation.

Lyra Morgan:

It's everyone else in line.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It does. And finally, echo chambers, social media algorithms, partisan news sources, even just socializing primarily with like-minded people. They all reinforce existing beliefs and shield us from challenging information, just like the controlled information in a cult.

Lyra Morgan:

So Aponte's conclusion here is pretty bleak and a cult. So Aponte's conclusion here is pretty bleak. He says politics has become identity, and disobedience is no longer disagreement, it's heresy.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It's a powerful observation. When your political tribe is a core part of who you are, then someone challenging your tribe's beliefs feels like a personal attack, an attack on your identity.

Lyra Morgan:

So debate becomes impossible. It's just defending the faith.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It leans that way, logic takes a backseat to identity protection, and that's incredibly dangerous for any society that relies on open discussion and compromise.

Lyra Morgan:

There's another layer. Aponte adds here right the Dunning-Kruger effect. How does that fit?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Ah yes, the Dunning-Kruger effect. It's that cognitive bias where people who have limited knowledge or competence in a specific area tend to significantly overestimate how much they know or how good they are. The less you know, the more you think you know. Basically, yes, upon to observe this playing out, for example, during the pandemic.

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

You have many people with very little background in virology or epidemiology or statistics becoming absolutely convinced they understood the complexities better than the actual experts, armchair experts Right, holding very strong opinions based on frankly limited understanding. Now combine that overconfidence with a tendency towards obedience to certain authorities.

Lyra Morgan:

Oh, I see where this is going. That's a dangerous mix.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It really is. You have people confidently obeying directives or spreading information without the ability to critically evaluate it. They think they understand, so they don't question. It mirrors the Milgram subjects deferring to the lab coat or cult members accepting doctrine without question, but with the added layer of misplaced self-confidence.

Lyra Morgan:

It blocks critical thinking because they already think they're thinking critically.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Precisely, and that makes them highly susceptible to manipulation, while believing they're independent thinkers. It's kind of the opposite of our show's name Thinking to Think. It's not thinking, but thinking you are.

Lyra Morgan:

Okay, this has been a lot and maybe a bit discouraging, but Aponte's work and this whole line of thinking. It's not just about pointing out the problem, is it there's an antidote.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Absolutely. Aponte's message is ultimately one of empowerment. It's not about despairing over human nature. The key, he argues, the way we counter this drift towards blind obedience, is critical thinking and, crucially, it's something we can learn and practice.

Lyra Morgan:

So how do we do that? What are the practical steps?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

First, it's about recognizing the triggers within ourselves. We need to become more aware of when feelings like fear or the pull of authority or that deep need to belong are influencing our judgment.

Lyra Morgan:

Become more self-aware.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly and ask ourselves that tough question. Aponting implies Okay, if I actually disagreed with this authority, what would I do? How would I react? Thinking about it before you're under pressure helps build resilience.

Lyra Morgan:

Makes sense, what else?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

We need to consciously prioritize evidence over emotion and logic over loyalty. This is hard. It means actively seeking out different viewpoints, especially ones that make us uncomfortable or challenge our beliefs.

Lyra Morgan:

Get outside the echo chamber.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Yes and scrutinize claims, no matter who makes them. Don't just accept something because it comes from your side or someone you admire. And, maybe the hardest part, be willing to change your mind when the evidence warrants it.

Lyra Morgan:

That takes humility.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It really does. And Aponte makes another really important point we need to reframe dissent. We need to normalize dissent as a form of care, not rebellion.

Lyra Morgan:

Dissent as care. Say more about that.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Thoughtful questioning, raising concerns, pointing out potential flaws. When done constructively, it's not about attacking or undermining. It's about engagement. It's a sign of responsibility. It helps make ideas, policies and groups stronger and more ethical. We should encourage that, not punish it.

Lyra Morgan:

That's a really powerful shift in perspective. Dissent isn't betrayal, it's responsible engagement.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly.

Lyra Morgan:

So, bringing this all together, aponte's final thought really hits home, doesn't it? The Milgram experiment wasn't just about Nazis, it was about us, every one of us.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It lands hard because it's true. Those tendencies Milgram revealed, the deference to an abhorrenty, the diffusion of responsibility, the power of gradual steps. They didn't vanish in the 1960s.

Lyra Morgan:

They live inside all of us. It's not about pointing fingers at specific groups, but recognizing these universal human patterns.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Right, whether it's in a global crisis, a political movement, a workplace, even a family that we have to belong to obey perceived authority, to feel like you're on the right side. It can sometimes lead us to override our own judgment, our own compassion, our own critical faculties.

Lyra Morgan:

It's a sobering reality check.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It is. But here's the hopeful part, the core message of thinking to think really, informed by Aponte's work Understanding these forces is the first step to mastering them.

Lyra Morgan:

Knowledge is power.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

In this case, absolutely. When you recognize these psychological levers the agentic state, the foot in the door, the power of perceived authority, cognitive dissonance you gain the ability to consciously choose whether or not to be pulled by them. You can resist.

Lyra Morgan:

So this isn't a call to just reject all authority or become completely cynical.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

No, not at all. Society needs structure, Expertise matters. It's not about anarchy. It's about conscious critical engagement. It's about recognizing the pressures, both internal and external, that push towards conformity and blind obedience.

Lyra Morgan:

And then choosing differently.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Choosing independent thought, choosing moral courage, choosing to take responsibility for your own beliefs and actions, even when it's uncomfortable.

Lyra Morgan:

A lot to think about there. We really encourage you, the listener, to mull over these ideas. How do they show up in your own life, in your workplace, your community, the news you consume?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It's an ongoing process, learning to think critically about obedience and authority.

Lyra Morgan:

Well, that's our deep dive for today. Thanks for joining us as we explored human obedience and the vital power of critical thought. This has been the Deep Dive. Keep thinking We'll see you next time. Bye.

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M.A.Aponte

Host
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Dr. Elias Quinn

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Lyra Morgan

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